President Obama and King Abdullah Al-saud

آحمد صبحي منصور Ýí 2009-10-12



Between President Obama and King Abdullah Aal Saud
Originally published in Arabic on January 22 2009
Translated by Mohammad Dandan
During the race for the white house between Barack Obama and John McCain, I used to say that John McCain is an American man, whereas Barack Obama is American made. The American made or the American culture won over the traditional man known as the (wasp) which is an abbreviation for (White Anglo Saxon Protestant). The era of the white Americans controlling everything ended, and the voice of the American Nazi and groups of white power and domination, which call for superiority of the white race, and oppose the non-white immigration to United States, their voice softened drastically. Many factors contributed to this change, including the Vietnam War and the American human rights movement led by Martin Luther King; with his famous quote (I Have A Dream), After 44 years his dream has materialized with Barack Obama taking over the presidency of the United States.
Those who struggled against the American war in Vietnam and demanded civil rights are now the elderly in America. They taught the new generation not to repeat their mistakes. All of them formed the current American culture that brought Obama to the White House. Standing opposite all this was George W. Bush, who became the worst American president, representing the former fading American style. The advantage of America is that they have high capacity to learn from their mistakes in an atmosphere of freedom and the ability of self-criticism, and that is the structure of its educational system which allowed them to progress in this century, and may be outpace it. But The Sunni Arab culture (salafiya) which is still living the past and trying to impose it on the present and the future, and still imposes the sanctification of Abu Bakr, Omar, Hussein and Ali, but still differ on the pledge of allegiance at Saqeefa, battle of Al-Jamal and Saffeen, and refuses to discuss objectively the Arab conquests and the major turmoil (between Ossmaan, the 3rd caliph and his opponents)
This Salafiya culture gave us in our times, the Saudi King Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz, vs. the renewable American culture that produced Barack Obama. Contradiction is clear and hilarious between President Obama and King Abdullah Al Saud. The difference in age is about forty years, but the cultural difference is about forty centuries. I have never seen a solid and good orator such as Obama, and I have never seen in my life a more miserable public speaker as King Abdullah bin Abdul-Aziz Al Saud, who almost did not know how to correctly read one line written for him in Arabic. Both are the result of their own culture and natural environment. Abdullah is the son of the family, which monopolized wealth and power, gave the state its name , Saudi Arabia. Here is the state and here is Abdullah Al-Saud, in his extremely old age is forced to follow a young brown U.S. President Barack Obama. If we were to assume that Hussein Obama, the Kenyan man, have migrated to the Kingdom rather than America, got married and had a son Barak, his son would never have gotten the Saudi citizenship, where he was born, but he would have lived as a servant like his father and would be under the threat of deportation. Aliens in Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states are deprived from acquiring the citizenship of the country in which they were born, as long as their fathers have migrated to the country. There is even the be-doons (the withouts), genuine Arab tribes, deprived of the citizenship of the State to which they belong. Shortly before Al- Qaameshli uprising, the Kurds in Syria were not recognized as citizens and did not have identity documents or passports. This is the Arab culture if it is Sunni in the Gulf, or Alawite Shiite in Syria.
This is the racist unjust culture of Arab societies and its perception of the other and of the newcomer, even if he is a Muslim and or an Arab. While the American culture allows a young Kenyan immigrant Muslim to marry a white American, offers grants to his son, free and equal opportunities for education, excels in public life to become Senator to the state of Illinois, his presence adding enormous vitality to the U.S. Congress, causing a change in the traditional thinking pattern in Washington, which froze in its innovation at the level it reached in the era of Reagan the Republican ,and Clinton the democrat, then deteriorated more in the era of George W. Bush. The star of the young brown Sen. Barack Obama shone rapidly, and I remember the words uttered by a journalist at the Washington Post in 2003 (Look at this young man well, he will be the next President of America). Those words came true, even the words of Thomas Jefferson finally came true, one of the great founders of the State of America and the U.S. Constitution (we do not care what is your color, nor your religion, nor your language, but we care what you will give to this country). This is the culture of justice, equality and equal opportunities of America. It is a genuine Islamic value forgotten by the Arabs, and resurrected by the West.
The unjust racist Salafi Arabic culture is borne by the majority of Arab and Muslim immigrants in America. According to the lottery system, America brings yearly thousands of Arabs and Muslims, gives them the residency green card, and after several years they acquire the American citizenship, but most of them still carry with them most of the Arab cultural genes. They live in America, yet feeling enmity towards America while enjoying all those things that they have been deprived off back home, like freedom and equal opportunities, they could even buy a church and convert it into a mosque, they can teach their children as they please, exercise their religious freedom as they please, yet his Arab cultural genes, reciprocate kindness with evil or worse. The prevailing belief is lawful looting. Wrongfully looting the entire Americans’ money becomes lawful, since they are heathens, and according to the Sunni religion, it is lawful to Loot their monies and to take advantage of their women. Legitimizing looting is very easy in the business environment of America, which depends on the confidence in dealing with, and the ratification of what the customer say, and to give the wrongdoer a second chance to remedy the situation ... some of those Arabs and Muslims took advantage of this American culture to obtain huge loans and then flee to their country of origin. Not to mention the allegations of poverty in order to receive aid unlawfully, while the American shies away (white in particular) from requesting such aid and consider it a disgrace. It is customary for the majority of Arabs and Muslims, to divert their income and savings to their country of origin to circumvent the non-payment of taxes in America. ..
One day I was out in a supermarket .I heard a woman of Sudanese Arabic origin saying: (America’s money goes back to its belly), had a shopping cart loaded with the procurement of various types of food, where the abundance and quality and cheap price, tempt immigrants to overbuy their needs, for they are accustomed where they came from in their country of origin, to stockpile food in anticipation of crises and price increase. And this lady, instead of thanking God for His blessings, for bringing her from the Sudan to America, instead of feeling grateful to the country in which she was welcomed and granted security from hunger and fear when she came here seeking refuge, leaving her people to their misery in Sudan, When I heard the cursing and swearing, I remembered a story of another Sudanese man, I met him through a bad coincidence, the meeting was set up to attack America. The owner of the house, a Sudanese who immigrated to America decades earlier and fulfilled all his dreams. I was waiting for him to say a good word in gratitude, to stop those ingrates who took refuge in this country, but was surprised to hear him say: (I used to think that there are no dirtier public toilets than in Khartoum, until I came to America and found the dirtiest). Enough is enough I said. I forgot that I was a guest in his house and quickly said to him, why you don’t go back to Khartoum and enjoy the public toilets there. And I left the place very angry.
I know an Egyptian immigrant who came to America as a student in the eighties of the last century. Hestayed illegally and soon gained legitimacy by circumventing the system gaining residency and then citizenship. He represents the vast bulk of Arab Muslims I know who hate America, yet carry its citizenship. He bluffed his way until he received a huge loan and then fled back to Egypt and tried to invest it. He was surrounded by the powerful from police and the National Party, and became a victim of their conflict, was sent to prison and his fortune disappeared. He was sentenced to be jailed in the United States for stealing the loan and fleeing with the money. In the latest letter from his Egyptian prison, he said that once out of prison in Egypt, he will return to America and choose to enjoy life in a U.S. prison, which will be the Garden of Eden for him to atone for his errors he committed in America, which gave him security and prosperity, yet he betrayed
The same story was repeated with another Egyptian who used to send all his income to Egypt in the hope that someday he will go back to Egypt to invest his money he collected, legally and illegally in a project. I advised him not to be hasty, he rejected my advice. I told him not to venture all his money for investment in Egypt, and only a portion of the money to try his luck, and told him about the previous story. Indeed, he rented a cafeteria on the northern coast for the length of the summer. And soon returned indignant telling us about the terrible tragedies he encountered, it was daily blackmail by all; he had to bribe tax officials, insurance people, local municipalities and police. Then the catastrophe hit when the police chose to arrest one of his employees in the cafeteria during a routine investigation. The officer told him that he needed to do that in order to prove that he was doing his job and performing his duty. The poor employee went through a routine torture procedure at the police department, was violated by other inmates, and then was sent by the officer to a full investigation. He was taken to all the police stations for verification of his innocence of any charge, and then was set free in the end, devastated. This is poor college student came from the countryside looking for work in the northern coast ,rejoiced that our friend gave him a job at the cafeteria, and was sleeping and working hard to save what he can to help himself in his studies, but a week later, they arrested him. My Friend lost everything in the cafeteria experiment so he closed it and returned to America, but kept his hatred for America even though he found a job with better and more revenue. The strange thing is that this friend was determined to send his American born daughters to study in Egypt; the girls did not like the Egyptian educational system with its corporal punishment and ignorance. The girls were determined to return to America where the rights of the student and the advantages of care beyond description. The experience of our friend with the cafeteria, made him return his daughters back to America where they excelled in their studies, and in the secondary level, they received in advance, grants for free university studies. Keeping their Islamic dress code and chastity, and their active participation in social and public life. In the election campaign, they volunteered for Obama’s campaign like most ambitious young people, and have achieved recognition from supervisors in Obama’s campaign in the state of Virginia, while Obama was hated by their parents, blind hatred to the point he had made a vow to donate a thousand dollars if Obama failed in the election. When Obama won, the father went through a real depression as if he was a real (red Neck) or white bigot.
Many Arabs of this sort in America carry this sentiment inside them, but there are lots who are honorable. I came to know a former senator in the Congress. He was a Lebanese Christian graduated from the American University in Cairo, emigrated to America, settled and worked in the state of Colorado, has gained the love and respect of its people, for his public work they elected him as a (senator) for the state, then as an American ambassador to Bahrain. He told me that he met with King Fahd, who found it odd that the U.S. ambassador is originally from Lebanon.
I really admired his loyalty to America and his sense of belonging to it. A true country is the one that provides you with security, justice, pride and dignity, guarantees you your livelihood, opens the doors wide-open for you to achieve your potentials. It is not a country that abuses your rights and insults you for the sake of a tyrant
This is the difference between the culture of Bedouins, the worst people in disbelief and hypocrisy, and the culture of America. the culture of ignorance produced Abdullah Al Saud and the American culture produced Barack Obama ...   Abdullah Al-Saud needs to learn nothing. His fate is to be a king because of descent, and is ranked in the state of Covenant between the siblings of Abdul Aziz, his father.. He can, with the people he owns and governs, buy everything from professional dancers to professional policy to professional writing. Unfortunately, however, he must read his speeches, which are written for him, in the Arab summits, and there he shows his inability to read.
For Barack Obama, he must learn, educate himself and work hard to convince the American people that he is efficient at public service, and especially the presidency of the White House. The American people have learned recently that it does not matter what the color of skin is of the greatest servant of the people (i.e., the U.S. president), what is important is his ability to serve the American people after the failure of many white-skinned servants the worst of whom was George W. Bush .. For this, Obama has become the idol for millions of young Americans of color, he has inspired each and every one of them that one day they might be president for America. I know of an Ethiopian American wife who recently gave birth to an American newborn, she announced that she is determined to prepare him to become a U.S. president in the future. It is possible that her son might succeed and achieve the American dream; America opens its arms to each successful one of its children in accordance with the standards of justice and equal opportunities. The dictators in the countries of Arabs and Muslims, they do not want one of their citizens or slaves they owned to be famous or recognized, because the tyrant is admired that he alone, holds all the applause, admiration and cheers. He wants efficient people to compete in, being hypocrite and eulogists, not to compete in science and innovation. He wants the trust of the hypocritical employees. The experienced, the efficient , and the innovator in this world has no time for cheering and dancing in processions of the tyrant, which is naturally not satisfied with that as well. This is why the Clappers, the Hypocrites, the Quacks Jugglers , Brokers and the White Slave, command media, culture, education, religious life, social life and the country’s military . Finally, a tribute to the late Hussein Obama, who immigrated to America where his son Barak is. The biggest tribute to him, because he did not immigrate to Saudi Arabia, the Gulf States or the rest of the Arab world.


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التعليقات (21)
1   تعليق بواسطة   فوزى فراج     في   الأربعاء ١٤ - أكتوبر - ٢٠٠٩ ١٢:٠٠ صباحاً

I wish this article be removed, or re-written

Dear Ahmed,

A nice well written article, I congratulate you on the gained command of the language, and the vivid description of every situation you encountered.

I also agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of the Arab culture, particularly the nature of business in Egypt with all the corruption that has managed to be the norm rather than the exception throughout the entire country. Furthermore, I would add to your description of the ignorance of the king of Saudi Arabia a worse case in the leader of Libya, who is, most definitely, a textbook “mental case” to be studied in the department of psychiatry at any school of medicine.

What I - Strongly- disagree with you, is the portrait of Arabs and particularly Egyptians that you have painted in this article, that they are all or most are crooks, thieves, lazy, and most of all hate this country, and hope the worse for it, or try to hurt or destroy it, in short, they are terrorists or would be terrorists, this is totally false and untrue.

You have given many examples of people that you selected to be the representatives of “us”, I mean those who came to this country like myself, and have stories to tell about success and sacrifice, who contribute so much for this country that we chose to be our home, and to carry its citizenship with honor, and to travel abroad with our photos and names on its passport. I could go on and on to tell tens of a totally opposite story to what you used for each one you mentioned, any American who reads your article will think twice before hiring an Arab , a Muslim or an Egyptian if he believes what you said, any American who reads your story will hesitate to say hello or good morning to anyone who looks like an Arab, an official in the Government who reads this and believe it to be true or give any credibility to it, will most definitely use his influence to do whatever he can to prevent or get rid of Arabs and Muslims in this country, and the list goes on.

Only one example of a good Arab that you met you mentioned, and he was not even a Muslim to heighten and underline your point, and the rest of them were all the scum of the earth as you described them, I fell very sorry that all or most of the people you have met and used as an example to talk about in this article are of that nature, because if you have met good Muslims and Arabs and Egyptians, I am sure that you would have balanced your article with more positive examples of them than the negative ones.
There are at least a couple of millions of the “Arabs, Muslims” including Egyptians in this country, the vast majority of them are hard working people, contributing to their societies as well as any other born American, paying their taxes, helping to build this country, and living in peace with their neighbors and fellow workers, these are the vast majority that any American who reads this article should know about and should see through the picture you have painted.

Printing this article in Arabic as you did back in January is one thing, perhaps to reform Arabs, Muslims and Egyptians who frequent this site, and would be in your line of thinking you have advocated all along which is : our mission is to reform Islam and Arabs not other religions or ethnicity, but once you printed it in English, it is no longer confined to the mission you advocated, but it becomes a royal smear and tarnishing to the majority of hard working honest taxpayers whose roots and ethnicity comes down from the Arab world and Islam.
If a right wing fanatic American writer wrote this article, the entire Islamic and Arab organizations in this country would have been indignant and would be up in arms, raising hell about it to say the least, and with justification.

I wish this article be removed immediately from the English section, or re-written, in a more balanced, fair and accurate way, before more harm to US, Arab American Muslims, is done.

Thank you.

2   تعليق بواسطة   عوني سماقيه     في   الأربعاء ١٤ - أكتوبر - ٢٠٠٩ ١٢:٠٠ صباحاً

A very offensive Article

Dr. Mansour,
I was deeply offended by your article that insulted me and hundreds of good Egyptians, and Arabs, that I personally have known for tens of years in the United States of America. They are of different faith, including Islam, and nothing whatsoever like what you described in this ill fated article. I have no idea what kind, or how many, people you got to know and for how long. In my case, I came to the United States in 1968, lived in Pennsylvania and North Carolina and belonged to several Egyptian and Arab clubs, of large size, but never met anyone that met what you described. The Egyptians that I knew were good American citizens, who contributed to the well being of America, paid their taxes, helped greatly the American economy; some of their children were drafted in the military and fought under the American flag. Great many of them work in great universities such as University of Pennsylvania, Temple University (to mention two in the Philadelphia area), University of North Carolina, Duke University, North Carolina State University helping educating American students, others work as scientists in big corporations with many patents awarded to them, or in the Federal concerns where they built great names and reputations, and the list goes on and on. I have never heard in my 41 years in this country any of the thousands Egyptians, or Arabs, say or have any bad feelings toward this great nation. As a matter of fact, the percentage of highly educated, professionals (as doctors or scientists, or professors) from the Egyptian/Arab base exceeds significantly those from American counterparts.
Dr. Mansour, if you need some good examples of true Egyptian/Arab success in this country I would be extremely happy to provide a very long list. In every group you may find a rotten apple, but to put it the way you did is simply not fair and extremely insulting.
My brother Fawzy was very kind in his response to your words, but I had to express my feelings towards the derogatory words pointed towards the people I consider myself part of. I am sorry that your luck drove you to meet few bad one, but certainly not the ones I have.
I hope you take my words as constructive. I am 75 years old and have lived more years in this country than in Egypt. I may not have firsthand knowledge of Saudi Arabia, but I do know about the United States and about Egypt from the thirties to the sixties. This, I would think must have some weight … Don’t you think?
Awni Sammakia

3   تعليق بواسطة   عثمان محمد علي     في   الأربعاء ١٤ - أكتوبر - ٢٠٠٩ ١٢:٠٠ صباحاً

Let us recognize

I think that most of the Manuscript of the examples correctly and real and exists and we can not deny it, otherwise we are not fair, and impartial .. However, this does not preclude the existence of a few examples of excellent Egyptians and Arabs in America.
I think we have to confront ourselves and to recognize the drawbacks and participate in its reform at all costs, resist the cause of these shortcomings and goal of Wahhabism and Salafism. And not let our fear of the results encountered deprive us of resistance.

4   تعليق بواسطة   محمد دندن     في   الخميس ١٥ - أكتوبر - ٢٠٠٩ ١٢:٠٠ صباحاً

....and then he said...

When you go to the dentist,he doesn't work on you healthy teeth.When you go to your mechanic to repair your car,he does not waste your time talking about how sharp you look.The tone of the article is not to denegrate the Muslims,Arabs,Egyptians or people of Halabja...He was pointing out some negative behavior that prevail in our community.And to make every body happy,I am going to ask Dr.Mansour to write another article about out the great achievements of Muslims,Arabs and closed

5   تعليق بواسطة   آحمد صبحي منصور     في   الخميس ١٥ - أكتوبر - ٢٠٠٩ ١٢:٠٠ صباحاً

With due respect , I said my opinion and you siad yours

As a reformer , my duty is to talk about the bad aspects only. This article has nothing to do with millions of good people like you who prove themselves in the West. This article talks - mainly - about the two different cultures, the Sunni Wahabi religious culture and the Western culture whic - in my opinion - is the nearest culture to the Islamic values.So, you have no right to be offended by this article . Besides, it was written and published in Arabic here some months ago. Thank to my dear brother who translated it.
And thank all of you for your comment.

6   تعليق بواسطة   آحمد صبحي منصور     في   الخميس ١٥ - أكتوبر - ٢٠٠٩ ١٢:٠٠ صباحاً

Thank you again dear Dandan.

Dear Mohammed Dandan
Thank you for translating my articles into English , and thank you for your insights. I am honored by your request. I only need more info. about successful decent Muslims and Arabs to write about them.People like you, Fawzy Farrag , Malath Arrar, Awni S. and others. I think every one of you has a honorable story of struggle and success.
All our dearest friends here are successful Muslim Americans who deserve to be presented as good example for the young Arab Muslims.
Again, it is my request from all of you, give me your info. and I will write about you.

7   تعليق بواسطة   فوزى فراج     في   الخميس ١٥ - أكتوبر - ٢٠٠٩ ١٢:٠٠ صباحاً

The article is offenssiveto ME

Dear Dr. Mansour
When I wrote my comments, I sincerely believed that you have acquired better skills in the English language, and that how I opened my comments to you saying (I congratulate you on the gained command of the language,), it turned out that I was wrong and someone translated it for you.
I also agreed with you in your assessment of the corruption in Egypt and the Arab world etc. my objection which seems to have not been realized by you or by Mr. Dandan, was mainly about the following:
1- The article paints a horrible picture of the Muslim/Arab/Egyptian communities in the US, it gave many examples of how bad they are in the most negative way a writer could have done to describe that community, which is inaccurate to say the least, and as I said, if it was written by a right wing fanatic from the new con, it would have caused a riot and demonstrations or boycott from the Islamic/Arabs/Egyptian organizations in the US, and rightfully so, because it does not represent the truth of that community in the US. If you or Mr. Dandan disagrees about this, I hope you explain your disagreement.
2- This article was written in Arabic, as I already mentioned, back there in January, and it targeted the Arab speaking readers and was suppose to be for reforming those that the article mentioned and was directed at. So why was it translated to English now?????????????? Was it translated to English to reform them again!!!!, and in all likelihood they are not, will not, could not be reading this in English, so may be if you can give me a good reason explaining why was it translated to English, then I would understand and withdrew my request for it to be removed, and I will wait for that explanation if any, the idea that this is my opinion and that is yours is not an acceptable explanation.
3- When I wrote some articles in the past that you requested from me to remove, for whatever reasons you had then, I did, are your articles Dr. Mansour above that, or do they have immunity? I have requested this, others also did the same, but obviously the one who translates it may not want his efforts to be wasted, and the one who always jump in to defend you, does not count for so many obvious reasons.
4- In your respond, you said the following (So, you have no right to be offended by this article!!!!) if I did not know you, and know that this is not what you meant, I would have been very angry and responded harshly to it, you probably meant to say ( you have no reason to be offended, not you have no right , and they are totally diffenrent ……………).
5- I still feel very strongly that this article distort the Image of Arabs/Muslims/Egyptians in this country, and yes, it offends me as it is not accurate, and lacks the objectivity. This tantamount to someone walking in a room full of people, all are honest with only one or two who are not, and calling that gathering a room full of dishonest people, that is exactly what it is. We have not recovered yet from the negative impact of 9/11 and the negative results it has inflected on this community, and this article makes it impossible or at least very hard to recover. And by the way, writing about me or Awni, or Malath or others is going to be a contradiction to what you said here in this article, and would do no one any good after the damage this article has done. It must be removed or to be re-written with emphasis on the fact that the examples given does not represent in any way shape or form the vast majority of Arabs/Muslims/ in this country who have done their share as citizens or residents, have paid their taxes, have contributed so much to the success and progress in the USA, and would do anything as any good citizen would do to protect it from any harm.

8   تعليق بواسطة   فوزى فراج     في   الخميس ١٥ - أكتوبر - ٢٠٠٩ ١٢:٠٠ صباحاً

To Mr. Dandan I say,

You have been praised by Dr. Mansour lately as a person of good manners who knows how to discuss politely with others, well, the examples you mention in your comment are irrelevant and had absolutely nothing to do with the ongoing discussion, you don’t seem to get it, this article is translated for the American people including those in authority to read what De. Mansour views are, and it happened that while he talked about Wahhabis….etc, he painted a picture of our community in the US, is that not true??, because it was posted in Arabic and I am sure it had served the purpose, so you tell me Sir, why was it translated to English and reposted, did you as the translator selected it, or did Dr. Mansour selected it for translation?? This article, like it or not, reflects very negatively on the Arab/Muslim/Egyptian community in the US. And it is skewed, biased, and inaccurate, the examples mentioned while may be true does not represent by any stretch of imagination this community, and I challenge you to proof otherwise.

You said (He was pointing out some negative behavior that prevail in our community), as a translator, do you really believe that this negative behavior ((prevails)), I do not know what community you live in and may be you ought to tell us more about it, but if I were you, I would try to see if there are other communities that this behavior does not prevail in, prevail is such a strong word, I hope you did not mean it.

Finally sir, you end y our comment with, case closed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, you neither opened this case, nor you have any right to close it, I hope this comes to you the right way it was intended to be.

9   تعليق بواسطة   آحمد صبحي منصور     في   الخميس ١٥ - أكتوبر - ٢٠٠٩ ١٢:٠٠ صباحاً

Dear Fawzy my discourse never changes, in any language.

I am sorry dear Fawzy. No one of all my dear friends - including you - was in my mind when I wrote this article. The bad examples I mentioned were real people, and there are a lot of them.
As I said, it has nothing to do with you, and there is no ( reason ) for your anger.
However, you have said your opinion and I said mine. Please add it to many things that we disagree on.
Hopefully to close this debate.

10   تعليق بواسطة   فوزى فراج     في   الخميس ١٥ - أكتوبر - ٢٠٠٩ ١٢:٠٠ صباحاً

Dear Dr. Mansour

Dear Dr. Mansour

If I suspected even for a split of a second that I was one of those that you referred to as bad people, I would have not responded, or would have with a different words. I am not the issue my friend, I know myself and know the way around here very well, just as well as those who dealt with me and knew me know.

It is not about the people that you met, no one questioned that they existed, this is not the issue and I do not know how many times do I have to repeat myself.

Despite of all the explanations to my objections and questions that I have raised up there, you have not made even an attempt to answer or explain any of my questions, and regardless of it being purposely from you or not, I consider this issue(((((((closed)))))))), and this will be the last you will hear from me, as I am offended not just by the article’s misleading picture, but also with your “ do not care attitude” that you offended many people, it is not a matter of your opinion or mine, this is no longer an opinion, it is a matter of what is right and what is wrong, it is a matter of a couple of millions that would greatly be offended if they read your article, it is a matter of the truth for the sake of the truth.

11   تعليق بواسطة   محمد دندن     في   الخميس ١٥ - أكتوبر - ٢٠٠٩ ١٢:٠٠ صباحاً

Mr.Fawzi.......please please be patient

Mr.Fawzi Farrag:
When comparing my contributions to yours in this site, my name changes from Mohammad Dandan to Nobody. Even if I ever outdo you, volume wise or intellect wise (some of which I attribute to reading your material), you could always come to me and say “I started first, and you can never match that”.
1-Yes, Dr.Mansour did praise me as a person of good manners; somebody else did the same thing a while back, his name is Mr.Fawzi Farrag, and in addition to being grateful, I hope and pray that I will never disappoint either one of you.
2-Mr. Farrag: you said the 2 examples I gave in my comment were irrelevant and had absolutely nothing to do with the discussion….what you think and what I think is immaterial; what matters is when we take the comments and ask a third party to evaluate, and here what Dr. Mansour wrote in his reply,
As a reformer , my duty is to talk about the bad aspects only. Mind you ,this evaluation came spontaneously and was not solicited
Which falls within the same frame of the 2 examples I gave.
3-Mr. Farrag: this article is intended for English speaking individuals not just Americans-----French British or Japanese, as long as they can read and comprehend English. And as far as the authorities, they are not waiting for Dr. Mansour, you, and least of all me, to translate it for their benefit, they have better resources.
4-No sir , I did neither select it or post it ,and besides ,it does not matter who did what to whom ,let us concentrate on the issue and not get sidetracked
5- Dr. Mansour never said or suggested that this article is a reflection of the community, This is what he said: The unjust racist Salafi Arabic culture is borne by the majority of Arab and Muslim immigrants in America
6-Mr. Farrag: Other ethnic groups have similar negative characteristics, we all know that, but Dr. Mansour was not talking about other ethnic or religious groups ,he was talking about some of our problems.
7-Mr. Farrag: case closed is a figure of speech …I could not care less if you or anybody else opens or closes any or all dead or pending issues.
8-unlike you Mr.Farrag, I don’t believe ANY article should be removed, altered, condemned unless the writer uses 1-profane language 2-uses the site to promote his school of thought contradictory to published rules and 3- is asked by site operators to cease and desist, after ample discussion of an issue and the writer ignores the request and insists on arguing.
And finally, I did not translate this article (to) or (for) Dr. Mansour,I translated for any one who is interested in the free flow of information.
Thank you for taking the time, my intention is never to prove anyone wrong…just to explain my point of view…. God bless

12   تعليق بواسطة   محمود دويكات     في   الخميس ١٥ - أكتوبر - ٢٠٠٩ ١٢:٠٠ صباحاً

I have a little question

suppose that Dr. Mansour in this article talked about muslims and arabs in the arabic countries, like egypt or saudia or wherever... instead of talking about arab and muslim communities in the US.... would the article be accepted or not?
Most if not all this site talks about the bad attitude and negative behavior the arabs and muslims have in general, why now this time, when it talks about arabs in the US, it is a problem? is it because the american-arabs are the elite while arabs in middle east are the bad?

From my personal experience outside middle east, which is limited of course to 5 years until now, i tell you, where ever there was a negative or a disturbance in a neighborhood, it is 90% likely that there are arabs or muslims behind it. I saw that in London! and in Washington and in Detroit and in all over those 5 addition to what i have heard about from friends here and there in europe and US.

A live example, which i witnessed, in London, Juma'a prayer, the imam instead of encouraging muslims to obey and follow the british laws, he encourages them to  disproof and deny their rules simply because they are kafirs..Bluntly telling the praying muslims there that it is not haram to seek means to minimize your contribution to the taxes of this country!..while we all know that these taxes is what secures them a decent living style in that country that they would never afford it in their own countries.

That was a cold blooded example that i witnessed..and of course the intention is know to all of us. 

13   تعليق بواسطة   فوزى فراج     في   الجمعة ١٦ - أكتوبر - ٢٠٠٩ ١٢:٠٠ صباحاً

A little answer for a little question

I take it from the question you posed, that it is directed at me, if not; just please ignore my response all together.

When you want to advise or punish, or discipline your own son or daughter, younger brother or sister, you do not do it in front of the neighbors, do you!!, when we talk about our people in Egypt, Palestine or what have you, we do that out of our care and love for them, our wish for them to succeed and move ahead to the 21 st century from wherever they are now, we do it on this site in Arabic, we do it because of what we have learned and gained form living in this country for years, or decades as the case may be. We do not do it as Elite as you mentioned, which by the way I strongly take an issue with the tone of it. So when the article was written in Arabic, it was a part of the so-called reform to those Arabic speaking individuals, who are in the centre of this reform or criticism, no objection on my part or the part of the others who felt the same like I did, and voiced their opinion and objections above.

When we wash our dirty laundry in front of everyone else, by translating it to English, a question which I have asked and so far have not gotten a logical or acceptable answer, that is another story. For what purpose it was translated after 9 month of its first appearance, it is not such a super duper article that needed to be translated to ALL the languages of the world, it has nothing of a step by step reform for any one, it is a statement of criticism of the Saudi king in comparison to Obama as the title indicates, I do not even know if the examples mentioned in the article about the bad people in the states have anything to do with the article or the subject of the title.

Now, all these examples could have been given to such or similar characters that lived in the Arab world as you suggested, and would have served the same purpose and caused no damage, but when we reduce the two or so millions of Arabs/Muslims in this country to be represented by these thieves , swindlers, lawbreaking, America haters, do you think this is accurate, do you think we are advancing the cause of a good understanding between them and the American people, do you think that this will be a something to celebrate in our community!!!!!!!!!!!!

A statement as I have asked for, in the article that tells the truth about the majority of Arabs/Muslims in America, that they are not all a potential terrorists, that they do not hate America or the Americans, that they are no different than any other minorities here, would have solved the problem, but it seems that that statement was a lot to ask for.

Now I do not know what offends you, and frankly it is not of my concern, but this article offended me and all of those who are like me, who gave better than half of their lives to this country, and contributed so much for the USA.

You have mentioned that in all the places you lived in, Arabs /Muslims were disgrace to the neighborhood, I am not sure of the neighborhood you live in the US, but it may be that it is time to find a different one, and by the way, have you lived in any neighborhood where there are a majority of minorities, such as Hispanic, blacks, polish, Italians, Irish……………etc, if you did, I guarantee you that you will find the very same examples that you complained about, or tell me I am wrong, therefore the Arabs are no different, but no one ever read in a Polish, Italian, Irish, black…………….etc publication some disparaging article about their own people, and please spare me the reform story.

There is a saying here that may be very applicable, do not throw the baby out with the bath water.

p.s. I said in the last comment that this subject is (((((( closed))))))))), but out of respect that I still have for you, I decided to respond to your question.

14   تعليق بواسطة   محمود دويكات     في   الجمعة ١٦ - أكتوبر - ٢٠٠٩ ١٢:٠٠ صباحاً

Respected brothers

Thank you dear brother Fawzy on your answer..
But frankly, i still do not get it... if this site is to be dedicated for reform, then those bad examples should be discussed and the matter of english language, i do not know what you mean dear Fawzy when you discourage translating such things, and you know that arabs are only 15-20% of all muslims in this world. So..english serves very well to get the voice of reform to many muslims, like pakistani, indian, somali, turkish, persian, and all others, who are not much different in their basic cultural attitudes than arabs but do not know arabic language.
The matter that you (and others) feel ashamed of discussing these things...this is a different story...
May God forgive us all.

15   تعليق بواسطة   محمود دويكات     في   الجمعة ١٦ - أكتوبر - ٢٠٠٩ ١٢:٠٠ صباحاً



16   تعليق بواسطة   محمود دويكات     في   الجمعة ١٦ - أكتوبر - ٢٠٠٩ ١٢:٠٠ صباحاً



17   تعليق بواسطة   محمود دويكات     في   الجمعة ١٦ - أكتوبر - ٢٠٠٩ ١٢:٠٠ صباحاً

Technical problem to the site manager

It seems there is a problem in the comment window. Everytime i try adding or editing my comment (or even try to delete it) it duplicates the comment in the webpage.

18   تعليق بواسطة   فوزى فراج     في   الجمعة ١٦ - أكتوبر - ٢٠٠٩ ١٢:٠٠ صباحاً

I do not feel ashamed

One more time, I do not feel ashamed, let me repeat, I do not feel ashamed, for the third time, I do not feel ashamed; I have no reason to be.

I feel frustrated that I cannot get my point across to you or to some of the others who does not agree that the article lacks the truth and objectivity.
Let me give it one more trial, may be this time I will succeed in getting the point across.

All the crimes that the examples given in the article had perpetrated are NOT unique to Arabs/Muslims/Egyptians, crimes of theft, falsifying records, swindling money, or even hate of the US are very common and were not invented by Arabs/Muslims or Egyptians.

The right wing groups like white supremacy or the Black panthers or the KKK or all the other “hate” groups, all represent hate even for America, timothy McVeigh was a prime example, yet we will never see In the so-called reform circles anyone associate a black man with what the black panthers represents, just because he is black, no one will associate a Latino person with the drug cartel, or any Italian with the mafia just because he is Italian………………….etc, did you get the picture.

On the other hand, this article seems to link and associate Arabs/Muslims with the examples given, it painted with a wide brush the Arab/Muslim community in the US as haters, criminals, terrorists or potential terrorist, and that is what anyone who reads this article will conclude after reading it, there is not but one single positive example of one Arab who is not a Muslim, to solidify the negative Muslim character the article is trying to prove. Mr. Dandan and Dr. Mansour realized that clearly and offered to write about the positive contributions of the Arab/Muslim community in the US, which in a way, made my case.

Finally, and one last time, the article is not balanced, it painted a biased picture of the Arabs/Muslims /Egyptians in the US, a picture that does not represent the truth of the couple of millions hardworking, law abiding, taxpaying, citizens or residents in the USA, and had nothing to do with reform, or with non-Arabic speaking Muslims, I hope I managed to get the point across this time.

I have told many of my American friends who are not Muslims about this site; Imagine what they will think when reading this article.
And I am still offended just like the others who expressed their feeling, but it seems that leaving the article is much more important than our feelings, the site prohibits hurting the feelings of others from other religions, but our feelings are not worth any consideration, especially in the light of developing the English section as you may have noticed lately, that has been adorned with so many articles lifted from other publications, for what reason!!! You tell me, use your imagination.

19   تعليق بواسطة   محمد دندن     في   الجمعة ١٦ - أكتوبر - ٢٠٠٩ ١٢:٠٠ صباحاً

...Then it must be me

After reading the article and the comments again, few times, not hundreds times, I asked myself, why didn’t I get upset, frustrated, offended? Is there something wrong with my Islam? Is there something fading in my Arab heritage? Is there something lacking in my love for Egypt and Egyptians? Although I was not born within the nowadays political boundaries of Egypt? Why would somebody else feel the way they felt and I did not? All the things Dr. Mansour mentioned applies to other ethnic groups and some religious groups too, lately for example, the bunch of rabbis in New York caught peddling in human body parts, to put it mildly .I honestly tried to figure out what makes someone get uptight and another of almost the same background, glide by saying to himself; so what… another day goes by. Whether right or wrong, this is what went in my mind. It was after coming to the State that I encountered statements like “Kiss me I am Irish” and “I am black and I am proud” and “Thank God I am Italian”, stuff I have never seen or thought of before in my life, my reaction simply was, should you spit in my face because I am not Irish? Should I feel shame because I happen not to be black? And the last one…I don’t want to say anything that some might misconstrue as blasphemous…When Dr. Mansour wrote this article, I understood it to be an assessment of some symptoms that our trilateral community suffers from…and yes if a non-Muslim, non-Arab, non Egyptian wrote the article,I might be offended if he singled us out , But it was one of us who wrote it. He could’ve written an article titled “get out of my way I am an Arab” or “look over your shoulder, we Egyptians, here we come” or whatever….But he did not….and believe me, whoever is following this multi dialogue, when I suggested that he writes an article about achievements of Muslims and Arabs, I was joking, because what am I going to benefit from, when I know that there is a Dr.Al Baaz, or a Dr. Debaghi or a Dr. Zuweil…except egotistical feelings , whereas when somebody points out my shortcomings he would be doing me a favor. Anyway it was nice talking to you.

20   تعليق بواسطة   عوني سماقيه     في   الجمعة ١٦ - أكتوبر - ٢٠٠٩ ١٢:٠٠ صباحاً

Reforming or mudying the water?

To Mr. Mansour and supporters,

In your answer you said “I said my opinion and you siad yours” and to this I say: Whose opinion matters the most? Neither yours nor ours. It is the non-Muslin, non-Arab reader whose opinion will matter most to secure good relations for us, our children, and our grandchildren in this country,
Second, you said “As a reformer , my duty is to talk about the bad aspects only.”
Who exactly are you trying to reform? If it is the Americans, then talk about them in English; if it is the Muslims/ Arabs then talk to them in the language they understand, and face them. The examples you mentioned here, are not members of Ahl-El-Quran as you said later. So why publish the negative where they will never read it? You should have mentioned that to them right there and then, not now. When God meant to reform the Arabs he gave them the Quran in Arabic not in Aramaic.
This is by no means to be called a reform. This is what people call muddying the water. I am so thankful that my American friends and neighbors do not read this forum to think that the only examples the leader of the group could find could find are those who come to America, take jobs from Americans, enjoy the decent life offered to them, and hate America!
I sincerely hope, for God’s sake, as well as your and our sske, that you never ever repeat such negative attributes in front of Americans. What I learned living in this country is that Americans do not respect those who do not respect their origin,traditions, or people. Some may like to hear these negativities but, for sure, it will backfire sooner or later.

Awni Sammakia

21   تعليق بواسطة   فوزى فراج     في   الجمعة ١٦ - أكتوبر - ٢٠٠٩ ١٢:٠٠ صباحاً

The stage is set!

Without going in circles, I like to know what is the definition of the word “Reform” that everybody seems to be talking about and or hiding behind.

I really wanted to close this discussion as I mentioned earlier, but for a special consideration to Brother Dewikat, I had to answer his question, but it seems that some here insist on either keeping it going, or having to have the last word, and in either case, I can handle that, even the sarcasm that seems to be the dominant flavor of the comment, I can handle that too , albeit sarcasm never won an argument, so I am going to go to the heart of the article itself and put some of what has been written in that article to the test.

In the fourth paragraph, Dr Mansour said:

The unjust racist Salafi Arabic culture is borne by the majority of Arab and Muslim immigrants in America.

Take a notice of the word” the Majority”, but Dr. Mansour in his comment above said , ((This article has nothing to do with millions of good people like you who prove themselves in the West)) which one is it? The majority or not?

Which he later on describe with things such as, (most of them still carry with them most of the Arab cultural genes) and again he insist on quantitating in saying “most of them”

Then he continues within the same lines and the same tune, until he reaches the last portion of the paragraph and say:

It is customary for the majority of Arabs and Muslims, to divert their income and savings to their country of origin to circumvent the non-payment of taxes in America. ..

Which proves that Dr. Mansour does not understand the tax system in the US, and unless these people he is talking about are drug dealers who deal in drug money, or they in a business that is not controlled by state or federal laws and taxes which I know none are, , or that they are in the black market and have accounts in Swiss banks, or they are heavily involved in the underground economy, if they have a social security number, they cannot escape the IRS and just as he claims, divert everything back to Egypt, and by the way, Egypt would have had no hard currency problems.

There is no need for me to copy the entire paragraph, read it for yourself, tell me how could anyone in all fairness say this kind of thing about Arab Muslim Immigrants, if he said few of the Arab immigrants, or some of, I would understand, anyone would understand, but to say, (((the majority))), this is false and unacceptable, did he meet the majority of Arab Immigrants, did he use some statistics to substantiate his claim. Where are these information coming from, just an opinion of the people he got to know, so how many of them did he meet, how many Egyptians/Arabs /Muslims did he meet during his stay in the US, not just meet, but meet and get to know very well the details of their finances and family secrets and private matters, how many, 50, 100, 500, there is no way in hell that he could have met more than 25-50 that he got to know them well enough to be able to tell about their very personal affairs that allowed him to say what he said. But even then, would that qualify him or be enough to make that claim that the ((((Majority of Arabs and Muslims)))), is this not ridiculous to say the least.

If Dr Mansour wrote a disclaimer at the end of his article stating that the examples given in there are not and does not represent the majority of Arab Americans or Arab/Muslims in America, and these were only the bad apples between them, I could have understood.

Finally, one of the bad traits in the Arabic culture seems to be the impossibility for many people to admit their mistake, it is often easier to keep arguing and finding excuses than to say I think I have erred and will correct my error.

This is the last that I will say on the subject, and to those who like to have the last word, the stage is set, go ahead.

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