In Egypt: Interrogating the Quranists under torture

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ط¢طظ…ط¯ طµط¨طظٹ ظ…ظ†طµظˆط± أ‌أ 2009-05-06

s false penalty in the name Islam, while it is fabrication made by old middle aged scholars. 
The Quranists refuse this bloody barbarian human made punishment. 
So, it is the sixth accusation. 
 
 
7-Denying a certain sayings ( Al Taheyyat )they use in prayers and replacing it with a verse from the Quran. 
Explanation: 
The old Sunni scholars in the middle ages invented some saying to exalt and idolize the prophet Mohammed in the Islamic five daily prayers. The Quranists refuse it and the recite some Quranic verses instead of this Sunni saying.

ط§ظ„ظ…ط²ظٹط¯ ظ…ط«ظ„ ظ‡ط°ط§ ط§ظ„ظ…ظ‚ط§ظ„ :

So, this is the seventh accusation. 
 
8-The permission of selling alcohol 
 
9-Denying that their defined amount of (Zakah) Alms is 2.5%. 
Explanation: 
According to the Quran, we believe the amount of charity is flexible according to the different circumstances. We recommend it to be about %10. 
So, this is the eighth accusation. 
 
 
 
10-Believing that the pilgrimage could be performed in any of the (four sacred months), not limited to few days 
Explanation: 
The Saudis keep pilgrimage in only few days every year according to the old Sunni Jurisprudence. This contradicts the Quran, as God make its time during the four sacred months. 
The Quranic Jurisprudence is the best solution for millions of pilgrims come every year and jammed in certain place suffering a lot. 
Because of offering the Quranic solution we are accused in this tenth accusation. 
 
11-Allowing women to perform prayers and fasting during their monthly period of menstruation 
Explanation: 
They consider the woman dirty in this time, so they do not allow her to worship God during her period. This is against the Quran. 
So, this is the eleventh accusation. 
 
 
12-Allowing women to lead the prayers including the Friday prayers. 
Explanation: 
It is OK for woman to lead men in the daily five Islamic prayers, but they refuse it. So, this is the twelfth accusation. 
 
 
13-Using the Quran as the single source of Islamic legislation 
Explanation: 
This is confirmed in the Quran, but the Sunni denies it. 
So, this is the thirteenth accusation. 
 
 
 
14-Considering the sayings of the prophet Mohammed as historical traditions. 
Explanation: 
Those sayings were attributed to the prophet Mohammed two centuries and more after his death. Those sayings reflect the Middle age culture. All the roots of religious fanaticism, bigotry, Holly war, violence in the name of Jihad, violating human rights, and the culture of religious dictatorship, come from those sayings or Sunna. We believe according to the Quran and the Sunni tradition itself that these Sunni sayings contradict Islam. 
So, this is the fourteenth accusation 
 
15-Recognizing only the five daily prayers, not all other prayers. 
Explanation: 
They consider other prayers as extra, and they devote them to the prophet Mohammed as an aspect of idolizing him. We refuse this because we worship God alone. 
So, this is the fifteenth accusation 
 
 
 
 
16-Exploiting some issues, such as the criminal case of what was known as (the children of the streets), and starting a satellite channel to spread their ideology. 
Explanation: 
This was a suggestion written by Abdellateef to take care of the poor children of streets in Cairo and highlight this problem in the media. We are too poor to have our own satellite channel. It was just a dream in our many dreams of reform. 
 
Because of our dreams of reform from within Islam, our five Quranist people were arrested, tortured and questioned these kinds of questions. 
Please read some of these questions and Abdellateef’s answers. 
 
 
A brief account from the transcripts of the interrogations of Abdelatif 
 
The general prosecutor charged him with the exploitation and falsification of the Islamic faith by spreading ideas that contradict Islam, which will impact the security and social peace and calm in the society. A charge that he denied stating that he defends Islam in the way he strongly believes is in accordance with the basic Islamic teachings, even though some people believe it is not. 
He was asked about his beliefs and how did he come to know and believe in them, he answered through Dr. Ahmed Sobhy Mansour, his books, his meetings, his Friday sermons. 
He was asked about his relationship to Dr. ASM (Ahmed Sobhy Mansour), he replied that he is his half brother, and that he manages his affairs in Egypt since June 2006. 
He was asked about the nature of his work for (ASM), he answered that he was re-writing his books and articles on the computer and mailing it back to him. 
 
The prosecution asked him about his Islamic beliefs, he responded that he does not believe in the Penalty of Apostasy in Islam, does not believe in stoning for adultery, or that some verses in the Quran has been deleted or altered, he believes there is no intercession by the prophet mohammed, no torture in the grave, no infallibility of the prophets except for the revelations, no ascension to heaven in midnight by the prophet. 
He was then asked about the books and articles that he was re-writing for (ASM) and how did he obtain them, he said he did not have it in the first place, but it was sent to him from the US by (ASM), who sent them with Mr. Maged Al-Sawaaf and Mr. Mamdouh Nakhlah. When asked about his relation to these two individuals, he replied that he never knew them prior to that, and they contacted him to deliver the books and the articles sent by ASM. Then he added that he started re-writing these books with the help and assistance of other individuals, namely the other defendants who were arrested with him at the same time, and that they were paid for their work. 
The prosecution then began to interrogate him regarding the charges he was accused of. 
 
He was asked, what is your opinion about what ASM said in regards to the prophet’s Intercession? 
His response was, It is non-existent in Islam, ASM mentioned that there is no reference to it in the Quran, and all throughout his meetings held in Ibn-Khaldun center as well as in the ones held in his own home in addition to all the Friday sermons, he re-affirmed that there is no mention or reference to it in the Quran 
He was asked who attended all these meetings with him, and his reply was, Dr. Othman Mohamed Ali, ASM’s nephew, also some other relatives, but they attended as a matter of courtesy to ASM, he was asked again, how ASM came to the conclusion that there is no (prophet’s Intercession), he replied that he could not find it anywhere in the Quran. 
He was asked who of those attending the meeting firmly believed in these ideas, and he answered that Dr. Othman as well as myself, but could not tell if any of the other people present adopted these ideas. 
Then he was asked about the Penalty of Apostasy according to ASM, to that he answered that there is no evidence or reference to it in the Quran, and that other scholars of Islam had also agreed with ASM. 
He was asked how did he come to believe in that, he said by reading ASM’s books as well as the book by Imam Mohamed Abdu that interpreted and explained ten sections of the Quran, and in comparing all that and what some of the “Hadeeth” said, he found no evidence that Penalty of Apostasy existed. 
The next question was how do you do your research and interpretation of the Quran, his response was that he studied in the school of Agriculture at the Azhar university, where ASM was a faculty member at the time, and his books were taught to all students. 
The next question dealt with his views about the Quran as the only single source of legislation in Islam, to that his answer was that many of the “Hadeeth” are unauthentic, and contradicts the Quran, and that the Quran is sufficient to be the one single source for legislation as it is mentioned in the verse (Is GOD not sufficient for His servant) 
The next question was when exactly did he begin to adopt these views, the answer was he could not remember but most likely after his graduation and finishing his military draft in 1994; he began to attend ASM’s meetings and sermons on Fridays in the mosque in Zamamlek, and to read his books. Then he was asked about the number of meetings with ASM and where were they held and what were the issues and subjects discussed, the answer was, I do not remember exactly, but there may have been about 20 meetings, that were held in Ibn-Khaldun Center, since ASM was the director there, and the subjects that he remembered were mainly religious from his published books, but he remembered two subjects in particular, the penalty for apostasy and the intercession of the prophet. 
 
Then he was asked about the reaction of those who attended those meetings to ASM ideas, his reply was that he never discussed it with any of them, but he also mentioned that there were hot discussions and arguments between ASM and some of them who could not agree with him, however there may have been some who did in fact agree. 
 
He was asked to list the names of those who attended, and he replies that they were strangers to him, with the exception of ASM children and his nephew DR. Othman, and the rest who were there as a matter of courtesy. 
They asked him how did the people who attended the meeting know in advance about the time and place of those meetings; the answer was that ASM took care of that himself. 
The next question was about the nature of his job that he was doing for ASM, he said that he was managing his project to re-type his books and articles and to send it back to him in the US. Then was asked as to the reason that ASM is getting his books and articles re-written again, he responded that ASM wanted all his publications to be posted on the internet site that he established and to have it ready for anyone who would be interested in publishing it. 
The next question was about the internet site of ASM, and he answered with the name “ahl –ALQuran” 
So he was asked about who developed the site, he said ASM’s son was the one who developed it since that was his specialty. 
 
Then he was asked again about the commands that were deleted in the Quran and replaced with other commands, he answered that ASM has written a book about the subject, and that there is nothing in the Quran to support that claim. They asked if he knew how ASM reached that conclusion, to that he replied that in reading his books and listening to his Friday sermons he was convinced that these claims does not exist in the Quran, then he recited to them two versed from the Quran supporting his viewpoint (Nothing of our revelation (even a single verse) do we abrogate or cause be forgotten, but we bring (in place) one better) and (The sentence that cometh from Me cannot be changed,) which clearly an indication that God does not change his mind. 
The next question was did you discuss these views or spread these views between other people, he affirmed his discussion of these views with some of ASM’s family, but also indicated he did not have ASM qualifications or knowledge to be effective, and that he wrote a few articles on the internet site. 
 
The following question was, you opened two accounts with the Cairo bank, Ameriah branch, one of them in hard currency and the other in Egyptian currency, to deposit the money that the accused ASM sent to you. he said, yes I did, and the money was to pay those who were helping with re-writing his works, and to pay the alms and charities to those that he used to help before his departure to the US. That lead to the question about (Zakah) Alms and if it was 2.5%, he said that ASM mentioned that this percentage does not exist in the Quran and that it was such an insignificant amount, and that he agreed with him. 
 
He was asked again if he wrote anything on the internet site, he said he wrote about 15 articles, all of which were about the contradiction s of the “Hadeeth” to the Quran. 
Then he was asked who else contribute his writings to the site, he answered that ASM, Dr. Othman, Ahmed Dahmash, abdelfattah Assaker and General Ali Abdelgawaad. 
He was asked again about the funds that were transferred to his account in Cairo bank, he answered that he deposited the funds that ASM sent as well as the other funds that were contributed, and then he was questioned about who contributed those funds, he said they were from a Mr. Saad Elsaad from Kuwait, a Mr. Hatem Kamal from Alexandria, and a Mr. Ibrahim Daddy from Algiers. 
They asked if the funds were sent to him or directly transferred to the bank, his response was that the funds were carried to him by Dr. Saadelddin Ibrahim, Khalid, Mona Hashish, and Magdy Elsawwaf. 
 
Then he was asked about his relationship to Dr. Saadeldddin Ibrahim, to that he said he has no relationship to him, and he only knows that he was a friend of ASM, and that he was the director of Ibn-Khaldun center where his brother ASM held his meetings, and that upon arriving from the States, he called him on the phone to deliver the funds his brother sent with him, and that he went to him to get it. 
 
Note: 
 
Every time that he was asked about Ahmed Subhy Mansour’s views, he consistently replied that they have references in the Quran. 
 
since the interrogation dated June 24, 2007, the prosecutor questions were in regards to his role in spreading his views that he strongly believed in, and his response was always that he never spread any of the views himself for the simple reason that he did not consider himself to be knowledgeable enough about the subject, and he thought of himself as a seeker of the truth, that was the reason that he wrote few articles on the site and some other sites, only to find out if these views were right or wrong, and that was also the reason that he spent his time reading and studying his brother’s books and articles. 
 
He was then asked about his relationship to Mr. Assaker, General Abdelgawwad, and Ahmed Dahmash. He replied that they usually met at Mr. Assaker’s home, and that they talked about many things that included politics and when they came to discuss religion, they talked mainly about the “Hadeeth” that contradicted the Quran, especially the ones that dealt with the prophet’s intersession and the other s that dealt with the torture in the grave, which they denounced altogether. 
 
He was then asked about his relation to Ahmed Dahmash, and if he was the one who convinced him with these kind of views, he denied that he was the one that did that, he mentioned that Mr. Dahmash, worked with him in the same place, namely Dr. Othman’s pharmacy, and that he was exposed to these views by Dr. Othman, and that Mr.Dahmash only assisted him in the writing of ASM books, and when he learned about the site of ASM, he asked him to help him join the site to write his views, and that he was solely responsible for his own writings, as he have his own page and his own password. 
 
On June 29, 2007, the interrogation took was about the same thing, and he insisted on denying all the charges in regards to his views and it everything seems to be a repetition of what took place during the previous interrogation. 
 
On the 28th of June 2007, following his appearance in the interrogation room, he requested to be examined by the medical physician because he was tortured by the security forces due to the fact that he was the half brother of ASM, he was asked about the reasons that he never mentioned that before, he replied that it was because at the end of the day, he was sent back with them, and that they tortured him to obtain confessions, and that ALL those confessions were obtained by force and torture. 
 
I (a representative of one of the human rights organization) was asked to be present during his interrogations, and the following is the transcripts of those interrogations: 
 
In the early hours of May 29, 2007, around dawn, many individuals came to my home, some were in plain civilian clothes and others were uniformed, they conducted a full search of my home and they confiscated some computer equipments including a laptop, a printer and a hard disk. They also took many papers and books and newspaper clipping of some articles as well as my bank book. 
 
Q. what do you say about your brother’s denial of the “Hadeeth” that lead to the denial of the of the prophet’s intersession and the denial of the penalty for apostasy in Islam 
A. I do not know 
Q. what do you know about the people who frequently visited your brother ASM in his apartment in “Mataryia” to hear his views 
A. I do not know 
Q. what do you know about the visits to his apartment by Othman Mohamed Ali, Aymen Abdelhamid, Mohamed Abdelrahman and Mohamed Sha’laan. 
A. I do not know, as I have never seen them in the Friday sermon, I saw Othman only one time, but those who attended the Friday sermon were his own children. 
Q. what do you know about ASM frequently visiting Ibn-khaldun center and Rowak to spread his views. 
A. He managed that center, and conducted many meeting that dealt with many different fields of thought. 
Q. what do you know about your brother’s use of a magazine of Ibn-Khaldun center called “ civil society” to spread his views, and then after the center was closed in 2002 he left to the US. 
A. I know he published in that magazine but I am not familiar with its views and direction. 
Q. did you buy a computer for Amr Tharwat and Dahmash to assist you in writing ASM articles. 
A. did not happen, each of them have his own computer. 
Q. what do you have to say about ASM request of you to open two bank accounts , one in the local currency and the other in foreign currency, so he can send you funds to help him spread his views and to increase the number of people on his site. 
A. that is not true, he asked me to open the accounts so he can send me money to buy books for him and to pay the obligatory alms and charities. 
Q. what do you say about ASM asking you to invite people to visit his internet site, one of those people was Abdelfattah Assaker. 
A. He asked me to assist Assayer in sending his writings to the site since he was not familiar of how to send the emails. 
Q. did you invite any of Assayer’s friends to write on the site 
A. Assaker told his friends to contact me to explain to them the procedure of sending their articles on the email. 
Q. what are their names 
A. General Ali Abdelgawwad, Abdelfattah Assaker and Abdelaziz Elsherbeni. 
Q. what is your relation to them 
A. I knew them through Abdel Fattah Assaker 
Q. what do you say in what the National Security Officer said, that the meetings you were invited to by Assaker were for those who adopted the views of the ( Quranyoon) and in those meetings a recommendation to add to the Ahl-AlQuran site several people including Ali Abdeltwaab, Abdellateef Hussien, Kamal Shaheen, AbdelAziz Elsherbibi, Mohamed Khalifah and Sarah Eltahhan. 
A. that is not true, and all those people requested to write on the site, only Ali Abdeltwaab and Abdellatif Hussien managed to write there. 
Q. what do you say about what you told the security officer that you have adopted and are convinced with your brother’s views 
A. that was the result of the pressure applied to me, but as I said, I am still evaluating those views and doing all my research, but have not reached a conclusion. 
Q. what do you say about what the investigation found that you have exploited the (Street children) known case and that you formed an organization to serve your views. 
A. that was an idea from one of the writers on the site to ASM who turned it down. 
Q. what do you say in regards to your planning to start a satellite TV channel to help in spreading your views on a large scale. 
A. not true and did not happen 
Q. you are accused of spreading radical thoughts and views with the intention of contempt towards Islam and to harm the social peace and stability. 
A. not true and did not happen 
 
The interrogation was concluded around 1.00 pm on July 3, 2007. 
His family was permitted to visit with him. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
P.S 
This is the Arabic Copy 
 
 
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Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 09:09:03 -0700 (PDT) 
From: "Sherif Mansour" <sherifmnsour@yahoo.com> 
Subject: Fwd: ÇáÊÍÞíÞÇÊ 
To: mas5949@yahoo.com 
 
 
andalus itas <andalusitas@yahoo.com> wrote: 
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 08:50:59 -0700 (PDT) 
From: andalus itas <andalusitas@yahoo.com> 
Subject: Fwd: ÇáÊÍÞíÞÇÊ 
To: sherif mansour <sherifmnsour@yahoo.com> 
åÇí íÇ ÈÇÔÇ 
 
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asem ibrahem <kzamana@hotmail.com> wrote: 
From: asem ibrahem <kzamana@hotmail.com> 
To: <andalusitas@yahoo.com> 
CC: <mahmoud.ibrahem@gmail.com> 
Subject: ÇáÊÍÞíÞÇÊ 
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 18:21:26 +0300 
 
 
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